Shawn Stockton, Ferris win second consecutive state title
Jim Bate/Seattle Times
When it comes to Griz basketball, there are not a lot of positives to be drawn after last night. One could be that Griz commit Shawn Stockton (pictured far right) won his second straight class 4A Washington state title.
Stockton plays point guard for the Saxons, who not only won back-to-back state titles, but also finished consecutive undefeated seasons.
Congrats Shawn.
If Tinkle is allowed to stay on as coach, what's the point in getting another guard. Tinkle can't teach him anything about guard play, since Tinkle doesn't know anything about how guards should play.
What Shawn Stockton already has learned from John Stockton, Tinkle won't allow him to use because Tinkle wouldn't understand anything Stockton was doing. Even if it worked and the Griz were winning, Tinkle would stop it and re-try his failure of an offense.
I wonder if Shawn Stockton understands the worst basketball move he could ever make would be to play for Tinkle.
The perfect thing would be for Shawn and John Stockton should come to Montana and dump Tinkle.
Actually, Stockton is the type of guard who would fit into Tinkle's style of offense perfectly. He's the gritty and mostly defensive distributor. A guy who knows how to win and can unselfishly focus on getting the ball down low to guys like Qvale and Ward. Last night he had 4 points, all from the line. Not saying it's the right style of play, just his, and one that fits into the offense.
- Colin
I guess the point is, why would a guy like Stockton even want to fit into a looser offense like Tinkle's?
Regardless of the style of guard play, you need perimeter scoring threats. If your guards are the best in the league at finding the open man but can't score a lick, then you better also have big men that don't miss and don't get swatted.
If your scoring threats come only from one place, you become what is commonly called a "one-dimensional" team. I'd rather have the Griz become what is called "champs."
Who has the best group of big men in the league? Portland State, correct? I don't think there's lots of people who'd argue that. Yet, in the absolutely disgraceful ass-kicking we took last night, who was credited by both coaches, players from both teams, and all the writers from both sides as being the engineer of such a debacle? ... Jeremiah Dominguez ... 5'6" of point guard who can pass, dish, AND SCORE!!
Oh, it probably didn't hurt a bit that Ken Bone is probably the best X's & O's coach in the BSC. He was among the best X&O assistants in the Pac-10 when he helped get UW Huskies to the elite 8 twice. UW hasn't even been close since Bone became head coach at PSU. Do you think the Griz play like this if Ken Bone, Rahe, Huse, even Earlywine are coaching this team? Don't forget, the pre-season polls had Montana among the favorites to win the BSC. It was not because of the previous year's record. It was simply from an assessment ... made by coaches and writers ... of the talent available to each coach. Unless the Griz win the BSC tourney, the season is a complete disappoint and a squandering of talent. There's no other way to look at it.
What we really lack from our guards are guys that can create their own shots. I don't understand why Staudacher is even out there he just camps at the perimeter and doesn't shoot the ball unless hes open for a three. We need a slasher and that is what made Dominguez so lethal, his speed combined with shooting ability killed us. Cam is the only guard i really see as this type of a player he has just been to inconsistant this season...But Matt Martin and Staudacher are basically the same player they camp out on the perimeter hoping for open shots they both cannot take the ball inside and make something happen. I think playing Zach Graves in a few of these blowout wins we had against Sac State and Northern Colorado would have been an experiment worth because hes the type of player who can drive the ball to the basket. Graves is our fastest player and the guy has major ups if you've ever watched him in warmups. I still got faith though were gonna win the BSC tourney and go in as a 16 seed and get our day against a powerhouse team
I have to disagree on Staudacher. Normally, if you have a dynamic 2, he's the type of guy you love coming first off the bench. We don't have a dynamic 2 so he's there.
He does not create his own shots in the typical way one would think of but he is excellent at shaking defenders. He does this without the ball. He's incredible at losing his guy coming off a screen. Just a great spot-up shooter. Every team needs one and when you don't have a dynamic guard, he should be in there starting.
- Colin
Devin,
I agree with some of your comments, but I disagree that Stauds and Martin are the same player. Stauds has a pretty stroke and does get himself free, as evidenced by the fact that he's gotten to the line for only 11 FTA's this year. He made 10 which shows you he can shoot. However, he did that in almost 32 minutes a game. Martin, averaging just under 24 minutes per game, got himself to the line 69 times, making 54.
Three point shooters don't normally get fouled. They might get contested and/or "face guarded", but they're shooting what is regarded as a low-percentage shot anyway, so they don't get fouled a lot. The way guards get fouled is taking it to the hoop.
Both Ryan and Matt can shoot the three, but they are not the same kind of player at all. Martin takes more 3's and misses more 3's. But he takes more 2's and makes more 2's. He's doing that going to the bucket. AND he's drawing 6.5 times as many fouls as Ryan does. People overlook that. It's not just the points from the line, it's the fouls he puts on other teams doing that.
So, a look at the numbers tells you Matt and Ryan aren't the same kind of player at all. Both are valuable to the team, and on any given night, it probably depends on who we're playing and how the game is playing out as to whether one skill set is more valuable than the other.
JMHO.
The only reason anyone would think Martin and Stauds are the same type player is because Tinkle has no idea what a 2 guard should be doing.
Tinkle, stupidly, forces both Martin and Stauds to play that way.
Stauds is a great 3 shooter, and is smart enough to play to his only offensive strength, a clean wide open shot. Stauds is aware, as is anyone who guards him, of his limited speed and ball handling ability. There is no need to foul a slow guy who can't handle the ball and give him 3 free throws, when even on a hot night, he will probably only make 4 out of 10 attempts. The defender just has to be close enough to bother the shot a little and far enough back to deflect a pass.
Stauds doesn't really dare take it to the hole and try to draw fouls, which is a good thing since he knows he would turn it over more often than not anyway.
Stauds got to play a lot of minutes this year, because Tinkle didn't want a 2 guard with the ability to play the way a guard should play.
All Tinkle wanted was a guy who would just hang around outside and occasionally take the long shot ,before the clock ran out after the point took to long to go inside and everything fell apart.
As far as being a meaningful, effective, create your own shot offensive player, I'm sure even Stauds understands he is not. He does have a fine stroke when he is open. If that is all a college coach wants out of a guard, they are a dime a dozen coming out of high school.
Nothing against Stauds, he a great shooter when he is wide open, but is definitely not even close to being a good all around college guard.
I strongly disagree. Every team on every level needs a guy who can consistently knock down a 3, even if it means he isn't your create your own shot or go-to-the-rim type scorer. The NBA is filled with these type of guys and has had them since the inception of the three-point shot. Kapono, Kerr, Paxson, Peja, Wally, Brent Barry. Not saying Stads is an NBA caliber player but if NBA teams have guys in almost the exact same mold, why wouldn't a college team?
In an offense built around getting the ball to bigs (not agreeing with offense just saying that's what we got) who are guaranteed to get double teamed, it'd be idiotic not to have someone like this on the court a lot during a game. Especially when this guy is a good post passer.
yeah i dunno i'm not sold on stads but you make a good point its good to have spot up shooters i'm just not a big fan of stads as a starter...i'd utilize him off the bench and if i were running the show i'd throw Junior and Cam in the backcourt and Qvale Strait and Jordan in the post but seriously Colin you have to agree with me its pathetic when we have 2 bigs out there and Huff is banking the ball of the glass 2 3 times getting his own boards i mean we are one of the biggest teams in the conference we should dominate on the glass and its frustrating at how much we rely on the 3, everyone whos played basketball knows that ur not gonna knock threes down everynight thats just how it is and our relying on the 3 cost us because we can't rebound the ball when we don't shoot a high percentage...anyways i'm done venting about our weaknesses lets go get a win down in Poky
I looked at the stat sheets of 2 the players you named. To much work to list all of them, so I listed just a couple of the 3 point specialists you named.
All of the guys you named shot many 2 pointers, and drew many fouls.
Stauds just isn't the same type player. All the guys you listed have very similar % numbers. Lots of 2's & 3's and lots of FT's. Everyone of them drives to the hole and draws fouls on a regular basis, thus the many 2's and FT's.
Stauds would make a GREAT player in D-2 or NAIA, where most of his opponents would be similar in ability. As it sits now, when he is on the floor in a D-1 game it's like the Griz are playing with 4 and 1/4 players.
Tinkle just isn't smart enough to understand that you need a point guard and a 2 guard that can both play both positions. We have that,
Tinkle just doesn't utilize it because of his UNFOUNDED fear that the 2 will go wild.
Better to have two guards who can shoot the three, drive the hole and dish to the post or wings. Even better is to have a coach who will let the guards do all those things with freedom.
Jason Kapono
TOTAL CAREER STATS
All Field Goals
863 for 1913
3Pointers
280 for 600
Free Throws
212 for 249
>>>>>>>>>>
Peja Stojakovic
TOTAL CAREER STATS
All Field Goals
4,010 for 8,721
3Pointers
1,347 for 3,322
Free Throws
1,974 for 2,210
Sanchez, Gar,
Another 1-9 shooting night for Martin
and your are still defending the almighty 13% three shooter over the last 5 games.
I agree with Colin on Stuads..45%(year) 48% (league) three shooter ANY college or pro team LOVES !! I see Stauds doing a good job passing to the post AND playing D..just doing his job as directed by Tinks..right or wrong strategy..he is pretty good at getting it into the post.
Most player improve their junior and senior year (Did Matt??)
I think Stauds will improve..If he shoots 56% next year and leads the nations in three shooting % will you think that makes him a good "shooting gaurd" then? That is not out of reach
with his stroke.
Sanchez..If Stuads is not a good college gaurd then Martin (as the coaches vote with minutes)..then Martin is half as good, since he is playing about half the time of Stauds.
Could it be Stuads knows his role and
is not selfish ??
take it one on one..and launch 26 footers and getting stripped in the lane.. I am sure that is not the offense Tinks is running most of the time.
I will give you this..I agree Tinks being a Big man himself ..sees the game as Big men see it..which is pound it to the post..Big sky teams have caught on quite fast to that it seems.
I really do hope I see Martin in at
least four more games (that includes one in the dance)..I do like Martins fire..and how he tries to make things happen..AND i HOPE EVERYONE DOES Not FORGET WE PLAYED PORTLAND STATE CLOSE THE FIRST GAME..ANY THING CAN HAPPEN IN THE TOURNEY
ps..I heard that Tinkle has some xtream cage wrestling planned for Friday practice before the big game.
It is ok though..He is activating 3 more football players..just in case of more injuries he inflicts on his
team the day before a game.
If you are using Tinkle as how a GOOD coach would have used Martin's talent, you need to rethink your entire argument. Martin improved as much as ANYONE could with a completely incompetent coach not only holding him back, ordering him to play a ridiculous style of offense. NO PLAYER under the same circumstance could have done any better.
PS
Every other coach in the BSC was afraid of Martin and were relieved when they saw that Tinkle was playing defense on Martin for them.
I see I've been missing out on another fun discussion.
My question to,
(Sanchez, Gar, Another 1-9 shooting night for Martin) is:
Martin's improvement? What, are you kidding?
If you remember, Martin was the point guard his freshman & sophomore years. You remember don't you ... the years we made it to the NCAA tourney?
As a freshman, he was already improved enough at the point to be picked by the BSC coaches as the only freshman on the all tourney team. The big change made was the coach, who took it on himself to take a winning formula and SCREW it up.
We could have been back to the dance two more times if Tinkle would have just left him where he was and let him run the offense like he did when we were winning.
I suppose you think Tinkle's changes in the line up made things better. I have to say, Tinkle's win/loss results just don't back that up.
Facts are facts.
For two years, when Martin was the point, we won and went to the dance.
Things went south when Martin was taken off the point. The win
loss record proves it and it's undeniable.
Tinkle took over, changed point guards and it all turned to crap.
I cannot wait until Matt Martin is no longer a topic of conversation. It's not that I dislike MM, just that we take a post on Shawn Stockton winning state and turn it into ANOTHER "if matt martin would've played we would've been AMAZING" conversation.
Colin,
Do you know why your blog is more popular than other Griz info blogs?
I do.
It is because of the controversy, arguments ... ETC.
People come to sites like this to get challenged and fired up.
They never stay when all there is to say are things like ...you like that, I like that too, you like this, I like this too, You like those, I like those too ...
ETC
challenged and fired up:
that is not only what you bring to the table, but, also your bloggers.
If this was just another one of those, "you like that, I like that too", people would check it out once or twice and you would never hear from them again.
The controversy over what Tinkle should have or should not have done to Martin, will be gone soon enough, but for now, it brings in bloggers with strong emotion, which is what every blog ONLY WISHES they could get.
Don't get me wrong, I love differentiating opinions but when it's the same opinions on the same thing it gets a little old. It's all good though.
- Colin
Colin,
OK ... No basketball Martin controversy today. How about a bit of humor?
I heard an excellent joke today.
Since this is a blog dominated byguys, some of you should get a chuckle out of this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Bill and Hillary Clinton were sitting at a table at Hillary's 40 year high school reunion.
Hillary kept staring at a drunken man swigging his drink, as he sat alone at a nearby table.
Bill asks, "Hillary, do you remember him?"
"Yes, I do", said Hillary.
"He's my old boyfriend".
"I understand he started drinking right after we split up those many years ago, and I hear he hasn't been sober since."
"My God!" said Bill.
"Who would think a person could go on celebrating that long?"
not funny
Way WAY FUNNY. Good one dude.
This political drivel doesn't belong here. I think both Stockton and Ward are going to be very good. We need to add some quickness also.
At this point, even more important than adding some quickness, would be the acquisition of a real coach.
Also, there is nothing political in telling a joke about ANY philandering, womanizing, deceitful, cheating husband married to an obsessive, over bearing, corrupt, power hungry wife.
Did you hear that Cam Rundles might be transferring Colin you might have 2 investigate that one a little bit
Have not heard that. I don't know why he'd be thinking about it unless he found a better school. If he plays the way he's capable of, he's a starter and major contributer here no matter who's coming in.
After last season and this one, Cam probably realizes how little Tinkle understands guard play.
To play under Tinkle as a guard, is a big waste of time and talent.
If Cam does decide to stay, I feel sorry for him.
Stockton is probably to young to understand what a huge screw up he is making.
That or he's smart enough to know that he's going to redshirt no matter what for the final year in Tinkle's contract Then Tinkle will only be around during Stockton's playing years if he figures things out and gets this program on track. Otherwise, if things are still rough, he'll probably have a new coach. Es posible.
Good thinking Colin, good idea. Red shirt until Tinkle is gone. I hope he listens to that kind of advise.
This is how I am dreaming it up 2 go down...Tinkle coaches next year and we have a mediocre season then he resigns or gets canned and Coach K tanks it up at the NBA level and gets fired or realizes that NBA players are whining bitchy millionaires and resigns and sees that the Montana job is vacant again and says hey i've already made millions at the NBA level why not give back 2 the alma mater and coach in Missoula again...we start runnin the triangle offense again Stockton at the point as a redshirt frosh with the 2 bigs Selvig and Qvale downlow and we go back 2 the joys of 2 seasons ago of making runs in the NCAA tournament and maybe busting into the sweet 16 or elite 8 ah yes...now back to reality goddamnit
I guess there's some things you just can't keep quiet. Word gets around.
Colin, what do you hear from Idaho State? I've been checking their blogs, etc., but haven't seen much about Saturday. What's up?
From Thursday's Seattle Times:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/budwithers/2004263558_withers06.html
Breakouts and Busts
Our annual list of the season's breakthrough teams and the disappointments:
Uppers
1. Drake. Nobody picked the Bulldogs higher than eighth in the Missouri Valley. Drake is 25-4 and Keno Davis is likely national coach of the year.
2. Arizona State. Consensus No. 9 choice in Pac-10 is 18-10 and should be NCAA team.
3. Purdue. Figured to be good, not conference-contending, 23-7 good.
4. Miami (Fla.). ACC last-place finisher in '07 is 21-8.
5. Morgan State. Was 13-18 last year, now 19-9 and leading the MEAC. The coach? Todd Bozeman, the ex-Cal wheeler-dealer. The nickname? Golden Bears.
Downers
1. North Carolina State. Blue Ribbon yearbook's choice for No. 17 nationally is just 15-14.
2. Syracuse. Three ex-McDonald's All-Americans, and on the wrong side of the bubble.
3. Fordham. Atlantic-10 team is 11-16 after an 18-12 season last year, with everybody of note back.
4. Illinois. At 12-17, has lost its way after title-game run in 2005.
5. Montana. Media pick to win the Big Sky, the Griz (14-15) lost by 52 to Portland State on senior night in Missoula, worst home defeat in 94 years.
Good to the Bone
When Ken Bone, the former Seattle Pacific coach and ex-Washington assistant, took the Portland State job three years ago, he saw potential where others didn't.
"I felt strongly we could be as good as anybody in this league, year in and year out," Bone said earlier this week.
So far, so good. The Vikings are 21-9, won the Big Sky Conference regular-season title, and host the league's postseason tournament, needing two wins to get to the NCAA for the first time in school history.
"There's a little bit of a buzz," Bone said.
Bone says Washington transfer Phil Nelson, sitting out this year, "is probably the best player in the program," and two other redshirting transfers "are pretty good, too. I'd be very surprised if we're not as good next year."
Bone is busy with the Vikings, but don't sleep on him as a candidate for the Oregon State job. The downtrodden Beavers would like a bigger name like Randy Bennett of St. Mary's, but they could do worse than a solid basketball man with lots of Northwest contacts.
Bud Withers: 206-464-8281 or bwithers@seattletimes.com