Griz now just hoping to make conference tournament
It's always depressing when one has to re-evaluate things then set expectations lower and change goals. It's even worse when a team you follow does it. Well, now the Griz—who were at one time favorites to win the conference—will be happy just to make the six-team conference tournament.
The goal is realistic and at this point, seems like the best-case scenario. The thing is, you wish the players wouldn't realize what the fans already have. When hearing this, the first thing that jumped into my mind was the '95 Seattle Mariners. Going into September, the M's were down like 10 games to the Angels. There's a story of a locker room exchange between Jay Buhner and another player. The other player said something like "Hey, if we get our act together, we can win the wild card." Then Buhner said something along the lines of "Fuck the wild card, we can we this thing." Where the hell is that mentality? Is there a single guy on this team with that sense of confidence and ability to lead? I doubt it at this point but if the Griz go on a small roll over the next few games, I hope it emerges somewhere.
“Today, at the beginning of practice, coach brought us in and asked us what we thought a realistic goal was for us at this point,” Montana senior Andrew Strait said after Tuesday's spirited workout. “We mentioned we just want to be in the top six at the end of league so we can get in the tournament. I think that's plenty realistic at this point. We have 11 league games left, plenty of time to crack that top six.”As a fan, it blows to hear this. It's admitting some sense of defeat. Personally, I've been dying to see the Griz host a conference tournament. I've been here for three years and have yet to see them battle for a NCAA Tournament bid inside Dahlberg. Of course, I'd rather have them win the conference tournament instead of the regular season but who doesn't want to see what this place would be like for a BSC Tournament?
The goal is realistic and at this point, seems like the best-case scenario. The thing is, you wish the players wouldn't realize what the fans already have. When hearing this, the first thing that jumped into my mind was the '95 Seattle Mariners. Going into September, the M's were down like 10 games to the Angels. There's a story of a locker room exchange between Jay Buhner and another player. The other player said something like "Hey, if we get our act together, we can win the wild card." Then Buhner said something along the lines of "Fuck the wild card, we can we this thing." Where the hell is that mentality? Is there a single guy on this team with that sense of confidence and ability to lead? I doubt it at this point but if the Griz go on a small roll over the next few games, I hope it emerges somewhere.
I also had great hopes for this basketball team, I went for the Colo st game and came out shocked that the griz actually won big it was a blow out!. After that ..well we all know how that has worked out. The talent is there!! trust me when I say it because I transferred from Ohio St to UM and I have seen good div-1 players, and UM has a few. So why not Blame the coaches?? Why is there so much support for tinkle??
ESPN - complete Montana stats
http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=149
Guards averages:
MARTIN
Pts Reb Asts Stls TOs
11.3 2.2 2.6 0.8 1.5
C. Rundles
Pts Reb Asts Stls TOs
7.6 2.2 3.5 0.6 2.6
CE Taylor
Pts Reb Asts Stls TOs
4.7 1.7 2.8 0.6 1.8
Guards actual:
MARTIN
Pts Reb Asts Stls TOs
215 42 50 16 29
C. Rundles
Pts Reb Asts Stls TOs
152 43 70 11 52
CE Taylor
Pts Reb Asts Stls TOs
94 34 56 11 35
You do the math.
Martin is our BEST, MOST PRODUCTIVE GUARD.
ANYONE who can't see that is a moron, and knows NOTHING about basketball.
That definitely includes Tinkle.
This team, more than any other I've seen, is unmeasurable in terms of statistics.
CET is the best point guard by far. When running the offense it's really not even close how much he helps out the 4 guys around him. Excellent game manager who stays within himself.
Staudacher is the best 2-guard. Also not even close. That leaves Martin as the first guy coming off the bench, which is what we've been using in the last two and how we've been winning.
- Colin
You are so far off it is amazing.
All you really have to do is go back and look at our only 2 worth while D-1 wins we have. They were at the Wash Cougs tourney in Spokane.
Look at the fact that we actually won, plus who got the guard minutes and points.
I've seen high school teams in 4A & 3A Washington State tourneys that would beat Eastern, Sac State and N Col. The last 3 wins were over teams that had small forwards playing their post. Those 3 teams have practically the smallest
lineups one could put on a floor.
Stauds shoots no better than martin, and Rundles and Taylor don't even come close to knowing the game or how to run it as well as Martin.
You are WAY OFF on your analysis.
So far off it's amazing, I don't think so. I have to disagree. I don't have anything huge against Martin. I think he can have a huge impact coming off the bench but isn't quite a starter at either guard position. Here's the argument:
Why CET is is the starter at PG: at the PG position, in this offense, you're looking for a player who stays within himself. That's not who Martin is. He likes to take and make shots. He's not a great passer and tends to get antsy when he's got the ball at the top of the key and he's waiting for a play to develop. CET is the prototypical game-manager who fits into this offense perfectly. Martin is a SG first and foremost.
Why Stads is the starter at the SG: This argument isn't tough. You say to go back to the last big d-1 wins. Even more relevant, go back to the last loss. Both Martin and Staudacher had the ball at the exact same spot on the floor with less than 20 seconds left. Staudacher had the first opportunity. He catches the ball and immediately drills a 3 pointer with 9 seconds left with a man all over him. It should've been a game-tying 4-point play. Next possession, Griz down by 1, Martin gets the ball in the same spot(roughly FT line left extended). Man draped on him the exact same way Stads had a guy on him. Matt pivots, pivots, pivots, Griz lose. Just the way it is.
Also, is there a chance you saw Staudacher in those WA state tournaments?
Martin fits the ideal fiery 6th man role perfectly. He's our Ginobli. He plays best with a chip on his shoulder. He plays with a lot of emotion. He is the best 6th man we have and from what I've heard he's fine with that role. You should be as well.
- Colin
Sorry Colin, but if any of what you said were true, the numbers would prove you right ... They don't!
Going back through all the games, the numbers do, however, prove me right.
The pivot, pivot, pivot pass you refer to should have not been passed to Martin, considering he was completely double covered. The man who paniced and passed the ball to Martin should be benched.
to colin,
It appears you don't put much stock in stats, but they ARE the definitive method of evaluation.
Why do you think so much time and effort is put in by every high school, college and pro team into keeping stats?
You may like the esthetic look of the number 5. It may be your favorite number, it may be your lucky number, but 2 + 2 will still always equal 4, not 5.
No matter how much you like the # 5, no matter how much you wish it to be 2 + 2 = 5, it will always be 4.
Numbers don't have emotion, and they don't have favorites, they are in fact, just THE FACTS.
The FACT is, Martin's over all facts, are in fact, better than Stauds, Rundles and CE Taylor's, and that's a FACT! No favorites, no emotions, no wishfull thinking, JUST FACTS.
Sanchez, Staudacher got the ball with the same amount of defensive pressure. He drilled his shot.
If you guys think statistics are the be-all and end-all when determining the more valuable of two players, I don't think I can convince you otherwise. You're too far gone. I mean you guys can take that and say who is more "productive" but I'll take the players who fill their roles, fit into the offense and stay within themselves. Martin does that when coming off the bench, Staudacher does it as the starting SG and CET as the starting PG.
We haven't discussed defense though... might as well check which game served as Martin's season-high in minutes?
Once again, I do not dislike Martin. I have nothing against him and think he is a great player. It's just that the role that best suits him is coming off the bench in an offensive role.
- Colin
If you guys think statistics are the be-all and end-all when determining the more valuable of two players, I don't think I can convince you otherwise.
..................
No convincing, with only an opinion.
I guess we all have our opinions. I have mine and you have yours.
We should remember though, they are just opinions, and not statistical facts.
The numbers, however, are statistical facts, and no one's opinion will ever change those statistical facts.
I went back and reviewed the stats page again.
Martin and Staudacher's stats are very similar. The only discernible difference is, Staudacher doesn't seem to drive to draw fouls, and it also appears to takes him 7 minutes per game more than Martin to accomplish the same results.
Colin,
Yes, In fact I did see live, Staudacher play high school ball. I also saw from front row seats, Nate Robinson, Rodney Stuckey and his little older brother, Aaron Brooks, Adam Morrison, Jon Brockman and his big brother, Kris Groce, Alex Tiefenthaler, Brandon Moore, Lodrick and Rodrick Stewart, CJ Giles, Terrance Williams, Mitch Johnson and Jamelle McMillan... for Washington I could go on and on.
Also, just last year in Oregon I got to see Kyle Singler beat Kevin Love in the Oregon State Tourney.
For the better part of 58 years, I have been either playing or coaching the game. Not to brag, much, I am very good at spotting talent, and reading and understanding the great value of stats.
Gar -
Stats are facts but because one has better stats it does not mean he is more valuable to his team. Martin gets the ball w/ a shoot-first mentality in an offense built around the bigs. Staudacher, takes (and makes) shots only when he's open then otherwise looks for the pass to the bigs, which he is excellent at. I'll take that mentality in a guard in this offense over better statistics.
Sanchez - I have nowhere near the experience you do but during my few high school and middle school years I enjoyed the few times I got glimpses at Martell Webster, the Stewart brothers, Spencer Hawes, Steven Gray, and Jamelle McMillan. Real rivalry in those last two. Doesn't get a lot better than the Metro league. Well, I guess it does w/ Franklin coming down.
I'm not questioning your judge of talent, that's not the issue. It's how well the talent fits into the rest of the things. I think Martin's talent and mentality fits in best as 6th man.
an offense built around the bigs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I guess Tinkle's offense is my biggest complaint.
Built around the bigs is the major problem with Tinkle's offense. We only have one big and that is the freshman Qvale.
Tinkle was trying to run that mess of garbage he calls an offense before Qvale was a Griz. It puked last year and is doing the same this year.
The only times his offense ever works is when the Griz are playing midgets like Eastern Wash.
He needs to burn his offensive plan, and go with Martin, Staudacher and Hasquet as the first option to score Run Qvale and Strait as rebounders and the second options to score when the defense comes out on the shooters.
1, 2, & 3 should be shooting or driving or coming off a screen. 4 & 5 should be setting screens for 1, 2, & 3 then rolling. First open shot by anyone gets taken. All but the guy who just rotated to the top crashes for put backs when necessary.
Sanchez- If you are 58 you should I would expect a little more maturity. Calling people who disagree with you morons is not at all persuasive. Also, your credibility takes another beating when you state that some Washington high school teams could beat several Big Sky teams. Yeah, right! Nobody tries harder than Matt Martin and he is a fine shooter. That said, CET runs the team better at the point and is a much better (quickness really helps) defender.
No contest..the coaches picked Stads over Martin and they were right!
DEFENSE !! i wish they had a stat for that..stauds get the high scorer and usually shuts him down (listen to some Tinks press conf).
Also I talked to one of you about who should be shooting threes a while back.
At that time Martin had a better three
percentage...someone said time will tell ..now it has...Now Stads does...Which means Stads has shot about 50% over about the last 8 games to get those numbers up..Compare the conf games
stats on both of them..the games that count.
martin has shared the ball better lately .but for passing in to the post and D and 6'4 vs. 6' make s a difference.
Martin got more minutes the last few
games (with Stads sprained ankle) and
did pretty good out there though.
AS a soph Stads is also a bright spot
for the future. can Martin shot better than CET and Rundles..HELL YES ! But cet role is not a shooter but a Passer...hard to mold Martin to get into the Pass first mode, this late in his career.
Did you notice that teams are leaving cet when we go on offense and you have a 4 on 5. The problem with having a weak offensive point.
Not knocking cet as i love the defense and how he handels. Just a fact that should be talked about that no one has brought up in this discussion.
This debate is academic since Tinkle won't give up the ridiculous idea of building an offense around big men that he hasn't had.
With the addition of Qvale, he could build an offense like Washington State.
It would be nice if he did, because then we wouldn't be the Big Sky bottom dwellers he is turning the Griz into.
Amazing how it has only taken Tinkle one and a half years to destroy what it took Krisko two years to build.
Tony Bennett dropped his Dad's so called Big Man offense at Washington State, even though he has TWO GOOD BIG MEN.
As soon as Tony took over, Washington State started winning, because he understands the importance of guard play.
Tinkle could learn a lesson from Washington State. He could give up the pathetic excuse he has for an offense, and watch some Coug's tapes, and then DO IT !!!
Low---------- 6ft 2in----14.1 points
Baynes------- 6ft 10in---11.9 points
Weaver------- 6ft 6in----11.1 points
Rochestie---- 6ft 1in---- 9.1 points
Harmeling---- 6ft 7in---- 7.6 points
Cowgill------ 6ft 10in--- 7.1 points
The Griz could build the team shown above right now, and Martin is the only one we have capable of playing the Derrick Low position